I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate

Written by on January 8, 2013 in Corporate Controlled Media with 214 Comments

Update 1/12/2013: CLN has received a takedown notice asking us to remove this article on the basis that “It is libelous and utterly false” from someone claiming to be a legal agent of Above Top Secret’s parent company. We are currently investigating and will post status updates as they become available. The original thread now appears to have vanished from Above Top Secret’s website.

Update 1/17/2013: We have requested clarification regarding the takedown request and have not received a response. We will provide updates on any new developments.

Update 4/3/2012: Above Top Secret’s legal agent never responded to our request for clarification of their takedown request. The original thread has now been moved to the “Hoax” category of the website, as ATS claims the author admitted it was a hoax in a private exchange. To the best of our knowledge, this private exchange or the details thereof have not been posted publicly to substantiate this claim. Regardless, we believe that covert operations to manipulate online opinion and debate do exist (and indeed have been publicly acknowledged in many of the supporting links below). Whether this specific case is true or not, it remains a valuable and provocative dialogue still worthy of consideration.

____________________

CLN Editor’s Note: The type of propaganda strategy described in the article below occurs across a wide range of topics and is employed by various corporate, political, and governmental groups to promote a variety of agendas. It is called astroturfing, and it is far more common than most would imagine. 

This post is not about Israel, and it is not partisan. It is simply an illustration of the mechanics of how online debate can be manipulated. As this is an anonymous post, we have no way of verifying the information contained herein, and it is presented only for your consideration.

Our intent in posting this is not to spread paranoia or incite shill witch hunts, but merely to encourage readers to view what they read and engage with online with a more discerning eye.

This alleged confession is presented verbatim from its original thread to preserve its integrity. As such, you may notice some minor typographical errors.

For more information on this important topic, see:

  • Revealed: US Spy Operation That Manipulates Social Media
  • Astroturfing: What Is It and Why Does It Matter?
  • Corporate-Funded Online ‘Astroturfing’ Is More Advanced and More Automated Than You Might Think
  • DON’T TRUST THE WEB
  • Online Astroturfing Gets Sophisticated
  • US Military Says Metal Gear Sock Puppets Are Real
  • Millions Spent to Confuse Public About Geoengineering (Not specifically about online “astroturfing,” but alludes to the same core propaganda strategy)

- Alcyone @CLN

 

I Was a Paid Internet Shill

 

internet-shillBy Ex-Shill, Above Top Secret

I am writing here to come out of the closet as a paid shill. For a little over six months, I was paid to spread disinformation and argue political points on the Internet. This site, ATS, was NOT one that I was assigned to post on, although other people in the same organization were paid to be here, and I assume they still walk among you. But more on this later.

I quit this job in the latter part of 2011, because I became disgusted with it, and with myself. I realized I couldn’t look myself in the mirror anymore. If this confession triggers some kind of retribution against me, so be it. Part of being a real man in this world is having real values that you stand up for, no matter what the consequences.

My story begins in early 2011. I had been out of work for almost a year after losing my last job in tech support. Increasingly desperate and despondent, I jumped at the chance when a former co-worker called me up and said she had a possible lead for me. “It is an unusual job, and one that requires secrecy. But the pay is good. And I know you are a good writer, so its something you are suited for.” (Writing has always been a hobby for me).

She gave me only a phone-number and an address, in one of the seedier parts of San Francisco, where I live. intrigued, I asked her for the company’s URL and some more info. She laughed. “They don’t have a website. Or even a name. You’ll see. Just tell them I referred you.” Yes, it sounded suspicious, but long-term joblessness breeds desperation, and desperation has a funny way of overlooking the suspicious when it comes to putting food on the table.

The next day, I arrived at the address – the third floor in a crumbling building. The appearance of the place did not inspire confidence. After walking down a long, filthy linoleum-covered corridor lit by dimly-flickering halogen, I came to the entrance of the office itself: a crudely battered metal door with a sign that said “United Amalgamated Industries, Inc.”

I later learned that this “company” changed its name almost monthly, always using bland names like that which gave no strong impression of what the company actually does. Not too hopeful, I went inside. The interior was equally shabby. There were a few long tables with folding chairs, at which about a dozen people were tapping away on old, beat-up computers. There were no decorations or ornaments of any type: not even the standard-issue office fica trees or plastic ferns. What a dump. Well, beggars can’t be choosers.

The manager, a balding man in his late forties, rose from the only stand-alone desk in the room and came forward with an easy smile. “You must be Chris. Yvette [my ex-co-worker] told me you’d be coming.” [Not our real names]. “Welcome. Let me tell you a little about what we do.” No interview, nothing. I later learned they took people based solely on referral, and that the people making the referrals, like my ex-colleague Yvette, were trained to pick out candidates based on several factors including ability to keep one’s mouth shut, basic writing skills, and desperation for work.

We sat down at his desk and he began by asking me a few questions about myself and my background, including my political views (which were basically non-existent). Then he began to explain the job. “We work on influencing people’s opinions here,” is how he described it. The company’s clients paid them to post on Internet message boards and popular chartrooms, as well as in gaming forums and social networks like Facebook and MySpace. Who were these clients? “Oh, various people,” he said vaguely. “Sometimes private companies, sometimes political groups.”

Satisfied that my political views were not strong, he said I would be assigned to political work. “The best people for this type of job are people like you, without strong views,” he said with a laugh. “It might seem counterintuitive, but actually we’ve found that to be the case.” Well, OK. Fine. As long as it comes with a steady paycheck, I’d believe whatever they wanted me to believe, as the guy in Ghostbusters said.

After discussing pay (which was much better than I’d hoped) and a few other details, he then went over the need for absolute privacy and secrecy. “You can’t tell anyone what we do here. Not your wife, not your dog.” (I have neither, as it happens.) “We’ll give you a cover story and even a phone number and a fake website you can use. You will have to tell people you are a consultant. Since your background is in tech support, that will be your cover job. Is this going to be a problem for you?” I assured him it would not. “Well, OK. Shall we get started?”

“Right now?” I asked, a bit taken aback.

“No time like the present!” he said with a hearty laugh.

The rest of the day was taken up with training. Another staff member, a no-nonsense woman in her thirties, was to be my trainer, and training would only last two days. “You seem like a bright guy, you’ll get the hang of it pretty fast, I think,” she said. And indeed, the job was easier than I’d imagined. My task was simple: I would be assigned to four different websites, with the goal of entering certain discussions and promoting a certain view. I learned later that some of the personnel were assigned to internet message boards (like me), while others worked on Facebook or chatrooms. It seems these three types of media each have different strategy for shilling, and each shill concentrates on one of the three in particular.

My task? “To support Israel and counter anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic posters.” Fine with me. I had no opinions one way or another about Israel, and who likes anti-Semites and Nazis? Not me, anyway. But I didn’t know too much about the topic. “That’s OK,” she said. “You’ll pick it up as you go along. For the most part, at first, you will be doing what we call “meme-patrol.” This is pretty easy. Later if you show promise, we’ll train you for more complex arguments, where more in-depth knowledge is necessary.”

She handed me two binders with sheets enclosed in limp plastic. The first was labeled simply “Israel” in magic-marker on the cover, and it had two sections .The first section contained basic background info on the topic. I would have to read and memorize some of this, as time went on. It had internet links for further reading, essays and talking points, and excerpts from some history books. The second, and larger, section was called “Strat” (short for “strategy”) with long lists of “dialogue pairs.” These were specific responses to specific postings.

If a poster wrote something close to “X,” we were supposed to respond with something close to “Y.” “You have to mix it up a bit, though,” said my trainer. “Otherwise it gets too obvious. Learn to use a thesaurus.” This section also contained a number of hints for de-railing conversations that went too far away from what we were attempting. These strategies included various forms of personal attacks, complaining to the forum moderators, smearing the characters of our opponents, using images and icons effectively, and even dragging the tone of the conversation down with sexual innuendo, links to pornography, or other such things. “Sometimes we have to fight dirty,” or trainer told us. “Our opponents don’t hesitate to, so we can’t either.”

The second binder was smaller, and it contained information specific to the web sites I would be assigned to. The sites I would work were: Godlike Productions, Lunatic Outpost, CNN news, Yahoo News, and a handful of smaller sites that rotated depending on need. As stated, I was NOT assigned to work ATS (although others in my group were), which is part of the reason I am posting this here, rather than elsewhere. I wanted to post this on Godlike Productions at first, but they have banned me from even viewing that site for some reason (perhaps they are onto me?). But if somebody connected with this site can get the message to them, I think they should know about it, because that was the site I spent a good 70% of my time working on.

The site-specific info in the second binder included a brief history each site, including recent flame-wars, as well as info on what to avoid on each site so as not to get banned. It also had quite detailed info on the moderators and the most popular regged posters on each site: location (if known), personality type, topics of interest, background sketch, and even some notes on how to “push the psychological buttons” of different posters. Although I didn’t work for ATS, I did see they had a lot of info on your so-called “WATS” posters here (the ones with gold borders around their edges). “Focus on the popular posters,” my trainer told me. “These are the influential ones. Each of these is worth 50 to 100 of the lesser known names.”

Each popular poster was classified as “hostile,” “friendly,” or “indifferent” to my goal. We were supposed to cultivate friendship with the friendly posters as well as the mods (basically, by brownnosing and sucking up), and there were even notes on strategies for dealing with specific hostile posters. The info was pretty detailed, but not perfect in every case. “If you can convert one of the hostile posters from the enemy side to our side, you get a nice bonus. But this doesn’t happen too often, sadly. So mostly you’ll be attacking them and trying to smear them.”

At first, like I said, my job was “meme-patrol.” This was pretty simple and repetitive; it involved countering memes and introducing new memes, and didn’t demand much in-depth knowledge of the subject. Mostly just repetitive posting based on the dialogue pairs in the “Strat” section of the first binder. A lot of my job was de-railing and spamming threads that didn’t go our way, or making accusations of racism and anti-Semitism. Sometimes I had to simply lie and claim a poster said something or did something “in another thread” they really hadn’t said or done I felt bad about this…but in the end I felt worse about the possibility of losing the first job I’d been able to get since losing my “real” job.

The funny thing was, although I started the job with no strong opinions or political views, after a few weeks of this I became very emotionally wedded to the pro-Israel ideas I was pushing. There must be some psychological factor at work…a good salesman learns to honestly love the products he’s selling, I guess. It wasn’t long before my responses became fiery and passionate, and I began to learn more about the topic on my own. “This is a good sign,” my trainer told me. “It means you are ready for the next step: complex debate.”

The “complex debate” part of the job involved a fair amount of additional training, including memorizing more specific information about the specific posters (friendly and hostile) I’d be sparring with. Here, too, there were scripts and suggested lines of argument, but we were given more freedom. There were a lot of details to this more advanced stage of the job – everything from how to select the right avatar to how to use “demotivationals” (humorous images with black borders that one finds floating around the web). Even the proper use of images of cats was discussed. Sometimes we used faked or photo-shopped images or doctored news reports (something else that bothered me).

I was also given the job of tying to find new recruits, people “like me” who had the personality type, ability to keep a secret, basic writing/thinking skills, and desperation necessary to sign on a shill. I was less successful at this part of the job, though, and I couldn’t find another in the time I was there.

After a while of doing this, I started to feel bad. Not because of the views I was pushing (as I said, I was first apolitical, then pro-Israel), but because of the dishonesty involved. If my arguments were so correct, I wondered, why did we have to do this in the first place? Shouldn’t truth propagate itself naturally, rather than through, well…propaganda? And who was behind this whole operation, anyway? Who was signing my paychecks? The stress of lying to my parents and friends about being a “consultant” was also getting to me. Finally, I said enough was enough. I quit in September 2011. Since then I’ve been working a series of unglamorous temp office jobs for lower pay. But at least I’m not making my living lying and heckling people who come online to express their views and exercise freedom of speech.

A few days ago I happened to be in the same neighborhood and on a whim thought I’d check out the old office. It turns out the operation is gone, having moved on. This, too, I understood, is part of their strategy: Don’t stay in the same place for too long, don’t keep the same name too long, move on after half a year or so. Keeping a low profile, finding new employees through word of mouth: All this is part of the shill way of life. But it is a deceptive way of life, and no matter how noble the goals (I remain pro-Israel, by the way), these sleazy means cannot be justified by the end.

This is my confession. I haven’t made up my mind yet about whether I want to talk more about this, so if I don’t respond to this thread, don’t be angry. But I think you should know: Shills exist. They are real. They walk among you, and they pay special attention to your popular gold-bordered WATS posters. You should be aware of this. What you choose to do with this awareness is up to you.

Yours,

ExShill

 

Conscious Life News does not implicitly agree with or endorse the views of the individuals expressed in this article, but we do believe that they have something valuable to add to the conversation.

As with all things, apply your own discernment. Fact check and verify where you feel it is appropriate. And most importantly, take the information that resonates with you, and leave the rest behind.

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  1. aebemacgill@gmail.com' aebe says:

    Eric Holder,our fine upstanding attorney General,had discussed doing the very same thing.Great stuff getting your mind boggled by the same creature that gave us ( And Mexico ), Fast and Furious.Along with hundreds of murdered folks.
    Government and private entities have always tried to control what people think or want,the WWW has just made their job easier.

    Validate your 2nd Amendment Rights.Carry.

  2. WisDem@noemail.org' WisDem says:

    There is nothing wrong with this! I am one of four paid staff at the Democratic Party of Wisconsin who work on social media. Meme patrol, posting on multiple sites, trolling news sites under multiple names, these are all critical to advancing our cause. You may call it “shilling”, it is actually heroic. It is also can be fun, especially when you redefine opponents on Wikipedia. Technology allows us to defeat Big-money.

  3. idomind@yahoo.com' Theo Davis says:

    Thank you for sharing your story and making people aware of this. Very Interesting. Essentially they are paying people to lobby for them. This goes on at the White House and it considered “respectable” politics there so do not beat yourself up. There are people, as you can see, who get on the net and become abusive for no pay, only because they like to dabble in sadism.

  4. floweratomic@yahoo.com' Kayla Malone says:

    Horsman is repeating the Israeli big LIE! LEBANON IS the FIRST and ONLY REAL democracy in the region. Unlike Israel, it wasn’t built on the theaft, murder and exile of it’s initial inhabitants the Palestinians and doesn’t have an apartheid system governing it. In addition, Lebanon houses some half a million Palestinian refugees who lost their homeland after the Israeli hordes violently attacked them. On the other hand, when a theocracy works well, such as in Jordan and the UAE, there is no need for this “democracy” bullshit!

    • thomasrliddle@gmail.com' Blue Monkey says:

      A clever fib sir, if you have no idea what’s going on over there. “Palestinians can move around”. Like when Israel flattens their villages and builds new settlements while illegally changing the borders? At least they can move around. Cuz not being able to move would be a human rights travesty.

  5. If only you had permamarked the ATS page!!

    I have permamarked this page, especially since it may be taken down. The PermaMark server is way outside of U.S. jurisdiction (unlike this server) and is not subject to the DMCA or most other copyright claims, as it is a historical mirror.

    See http://www.permamarks.net/grabbed_urls/OQhBYg/consciouslifenews.com_228.htmlz

  6. j.willbanks@me.com' Alcyone says:

    I will repeat this point because many people seemed to have missed it:

    CLN Editor’s Note: The type of propaganda strategy described in the article below occurs across a wide range of topics and is employed by various corporate, political, and governmental groups to promote a variety of agendas. It is called astroturfing, and it is far more common than most would imagine.

    This post is not about Israel, and it is not partisan. It is simply an illustration of the mechanics of how online debate can be manipulated. As this is an anonymous post, we have no way of verifying the information contained herein, and it is presented only for your consideration.
    Our intent in posting this is not to spread paranoia or incite shill witch hunts, but merely to encourage readers to view what they read and engage with online with a more discerning eye.
    This confession is presented verbatim from its original thread to preserve its integrity. As such, you may notice some minor typographical errors.

    Following this is a list of multiple sources you can check out for yourself to see that internet shilling is by no means an exclusive club. Governments, corporations, and political groups employ it to. The specific example in this article just happened to be about Israel, and at no point even suggested that the coordinated shill operation was commissioned or paid for by the Israeli government.

  7. thomasrliddle@gmail.com' Blue Monkey says:

    After following this thread for one day, in my humble opinion, that takedown notice should be ignored.

    Israel is a contentious issue that many powerful people have a lot riding on, but it is simply an EXAMPLE. Environment, contraception, the economy, and politics generally are ALL equally contentious issues with equal amounts of astroturfing in play. We even have a comment claiming to be an employee of the democratic party who does the same job, and the republicans have them too. It is a method of moulding public opinion. There is a monopoly on the news media, which discourages public discourse, so these conversations move online. Naturally that is where the battle for legitimate free speech moves to.

    The point is not what we individually think about these issues, there are bound to be differences of opinion. However, I think we can mostly agree that people should be able to freely engage in open dialogue on public forums without paid representatives of special interest groups skewing the discussion, sabotaging dialogue by stooping to ad hominem attacks and misrepresenting facts in the hopes that the average citizen will not take the time to research every ‘casual’ statement.

    Those of you who engage in this are disgraceful. You are feeding your children by poisoning the well. The well your children will also drink from. You are traitors to humanity, every one of you.

    • thomasrliddle@gmail.com' Blue Monkey says:

      Seems the post by the guy/gal who claimed to be one of 4 head office shills for the democratic party was removed within hours of my responding to him/her. Too bad. It was an honest post written by someone who believed in what they were doing, but I called them on their methods. So if it seems like earlier I quote something that doesn’t exist.. well, I do. But it was here, swear to god. o.O

  8. kirby4d@yahoo.com' Real Israel supporter says:

    I didnt miss it and it is about Israel, as well as every other topic that uses this tactic. This is like saying “Its not about chocolate. Im hungry.” while munching on a chocolate bar.

    • blakehamilton20@yahoo.co.uk' Blake says:

      How can anyone who has a conscience support “Israel” ? Where are the thoughts for those languishing in refugee camps because of this sinister entitlement to their land by outsiders?

      • kirby4d@yahoo.com' Real Israel supporter says:

        The question should be “How can anyone with a conscience support the Arabs?” The Arabs have been racistly and xenophobically opposing Jewish residence in Israel for decades and centuries before Israel was refounded. The Arabs are the ones who keep their own in squalid refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Gaza, WB, etc. When the refugees try to build homes, the Arab governments destroy them. They need to have the refugees to bash Israel around with so they can hope one day to send them to Israel and eliminate it demographically. This is the only group of refugees in the world which are not permitted by their host countries to resettle. This is the only group of refugees that is inherited. Do some research, bud. There was a palestinian on reddit awhile ago who said you have no idea what youre talking about. Also, look up Khaled Abu Toameh. Arabs have a better deal in Israel, Gaza, and WB, than anywhere in the Arab world. All thanks to Israel.

        Oh and lets not forget that Israel just saved hundreds of palestinian lives from floodwaters due to recent storms. The latter thanked the Jews by pelting snowballs at them.

        • t3rdiopen@hotmail.com' Synagoge of Satan Killer says:

          Save a 100 kill a 1000. Let’s ask a simple question. Do you think that the USA should give back the lands to the Indigenous people of the Americas? If you say no or it’s not the same thing, then you are a hypocrite and a liar. I think the so called “jews” in Israel should go back and resettle to where they came from. You’re all Europeans and you know it. Your Torah is not a deed and you also know that it’s not really your Torah. If you look up Semitic in the dictionary it will tell you a mixed race or black race. Why are these “jews” white? If Moses was white why did his brother Aaron beg not to cursed with white skin? Why does Solomon refer to himself and DARK in complexion? Why did Judah claim his skin was as “Black unto the ground”? How can you be a Semite? If you look up semite people one of the first people included in that race is ARABS. Tell me “jew” boy, why should pick you over those people who’ve been there for a few thousand years?

      • blakehamilton20@yahoo.co.uk' Blake says:

        It has nothing to do with who or what they are , it’s about basic human rights. A simple case of RIGHT OVER WRONG to anyone with morals and ethics. On May 14, 1948, a European Zionist Jewish state was SELF proclaimed in PALESTINE. It’s on stolen land. It’s on 78% of historic Palestine. International law affirms the universal right of return. It’s not negotiable.

  9. jumaftw@gmail.com' Juma says:

    Palestinians (remember, they used to be Christians, Muslims and a few Jews living in peace in the pre-ww2 world) are Semitic people. Most Israelites come from AshkeNAZIm descent : they are not Semites but they persecute the Semites.
    One of the most wide-spread methods for discrediting people and giving unwarranted weight to your arguments is to call the other party exactly what you are and accuse him of doing exactly what you’re doing.
    “Hate” and “Evil” are their two favorite words (besides “antisemite”); one has to wonder why :)

  10. chillmike@live.com' cmtrue says:

    i was actually a paid “shill” for a penny stocks guy, as well as seo, and other work he did for online clients. i would never do such a thing for political issues, or anything having to do with people’s opinions or the way they think, but for retail and e-commerce and things like that, i figured it wasn’t as bad to do, since i hadnt had a job for a long while beforehand as well like the OP… thats the only reason i did it, was because i thought it hung on okay side of the line of morality, since i wasnt influencing public opinion on anything, and just trying to get them to buy stuff, just like any tv commercial or online advertisement would be doing anyways….

  11. similicure@yahoo.co.uk' Kaviraj says:

    I have a screenshot of a shill who admits to get paid $3.50 per post of a minute.(takes a minute to type) If he “wins” the debate – i.e. if the other person stops dealing with the moron – he gets a bonus of $7. Many give up soon and others not so soon. The guy makes a good 3 grand a week.

  12. madmanmikel@netscape.net' MADMANMIKE says:

    This explains why there are always several “thumbs down” ratings on every Youtube video…

  13. su.allen50@gmail.com' Susan A. says:

    I’m very disappointed in Care2. I’ve had a funny feeling about Wanda from the moment she first showed up on the site. Another one I feel might be a shill is Matt, but he could just be an actual nut. Wanda, on the other hand, was just always all about “facts.” I got real tired of the gun threads and although I was reading a lot of the posts, I wasn’t posting unless it was some humorous link. Anyway, what can we do? Any ideas? If you do, but dont want to post, just say yes and I’ll email you. I’ll help if I can. Has anyone else contacted you? Good luck.

  14. seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

    Sorry to disappoint you, but it appears Kevin, the resident historian, has a bit to do with it too. I tend to want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he has said that he teaches law, then argues that it’s OK for him to ignore conceal weapons laws in states he does not like the law. I can hardly see a law professor argue the semantics of knowingly breaking states gun laws and claiming it’s OK because it’s a “silly” law. My profs never made laws out to be silly.

    I would not have taken that gun thread so far, except to challenge the shill Wanda. Send the email and I’ll copy my word page with some good examples, and we can communicate directly, not in a public forum.

    I took a risk posting my email but we only live once.

    Perhaps you can pass on this to Dotti Lindon or get her linked here. Michael Dewey is another I’d like to get word to. My emails are safe, but I have absolutely no communications thru c2.

    Real people at c2 should know what is happening and that it’s happening with the sites blessing and help. This article describes it exactly. Very important.

    Please consider supporting “The American Corruption Act” to help stop some of this BS.

  15. seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

    Susan, see in the above confession where he explains that some stay on the sites while others leave. That’s for effective control and one can about pick them out when watching.

    I think c2 probably has about the 8 people described above, with four or five that blend in with real people, yet always seem to pop up with a contrary (usually GOP) position.

  16. seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

    Susan, please send a message to Carla V. @ c2 with a link to this site or my email. Thanks very much…with all of my efforts to warn persons…you are the only one who got the message. Anazing how effective it is when management is involved.

    • su.allen50@gmail.com' Susan A. says:

      Today, I’ll try to get messages through to the 3 names you gave me. Will let you know. I copied the msg I got with your email. I’ll send that to them, along with some other info. Oh wait, personal messages are limited. I will get some word to them though and will be in touch through email.

  17. anmrone2@yahoo.com' A&E says:

    Democratic Underground is crawling with these types, jumping on anything and everything that smacks of “Liberalism”, and pumping their conservative third-way agenda.

  18. pomeroo@verizon.net' Ronald Wieck says:

    Silly liar, nobody gets paid to post on the internet. I really wish I were wrong.

  19. seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

    Exactly, that’s what makes it a “conspiracy”. But my guess is you will never see the names or real identity of the top shills… but Carl Rove does I bet and one would think AIPAC does. They have people to manage people to manage people to keep their lists of people that post.

    Where do all those campain donations get spent??? The above “job” would explain a lot.

    I wonder if this shill “employment” is considered in the GDP and employment statistics, since these organizations most likely pay payroll taxes and give w2 or 1099 forms (many would be “independant contractors”).

    I support the American Anti-Corruption Act as a starting point to bring integrity back into government.

    • dbrogs@gmail.com' DayBro says:

      Toby, I have never been much into conspiracies. However, there is so much information on supposed conspiracies that I felt it was my civic duty to educate myself so that I can make an informed decision about government and business. It took several months but I have had to conclude that there is vast conspiracy that reaches far back into history.

      As such, a large part of manipulating events has involved manipulating opinion. These manipulations originate from the tops of corporations, banks, governments. I have no doubt that the origin of many of these chat rooms, news providers, etc are put in place by those who manipulate opinion in order to control us. This opinion manipulation is the very bedrock by which they accomplish their goals. There is truly a huge information war raging as we speak and the very soul of our country and our planet is at stake.

      So I encourage you to keep up the good fight and don’t let it bother you too much, these lost relationships. In a war there are casualties and this is no exception. There are people who are dying, as we speak, because of their opinions. The forces behind the disinformation are murderous and care little for human life. The work of defending the truth is a noble one. So hang in there brother.

  20. Nataliehuggard@hotmail.com' Nat says:

    I don’t doubt that this happens, but this story seems a bit suss with all the colourful descriptions and cliches. Reads like a cheap thriller and doesn’t ring true for me.

  21. kw6238b@yahoo.com' Frank says:

    Nat, I was thinking about that myself. His introduction has that dramatization but then he drops that language when he gets into the details. It’s a strange post.

    I will say that I keep up with some pro-Palestinian web sites and they have had stories about things the Israelis and their supporters do to promote Israel, and it sounds a lot like this. It’s become more urgent to them as the Palestinians and their supporters get more adept at getting their side of the story out and as support for the Palestinians grows. One thing I remember was that some group had organized an effort to get people to qualify to put content on Wikipedia. And there was something called the Hasbara Handbook that was made up by a supporter of Israel in the US. It had all kinds of talking points and ways of influencing public forums. If you Google that term, Richard Silverstein has a good expose on it. But it includes using tactics like character smears.

    Electronicintifada.net has done some stories on these kinds of things.

    • seilertechco@yahoo.com' Toby says:

      Here is a gun shill post on a “healthy and green living” site directed at me. My problem was that when I stood up to the shill, I was banned. That leaves me believing they are paying some sites, as well as the shills.

      ” that is the thing with BIGOTs against ‘Assault’ (BLACK) things like you do and say to feebly attempt to take the spot light of your BIGOTRY. Maybe we should start following your example and label anything BLACK we want to BAN with the word ‘Assault’, it seems to justify your modern day profiling. *tisk* *tisk*, there was always something off with you with all the violence and insults you always make towards others here who have been respectful.”

      I never spoke of a gun color nor advocated violence, confiscation or any policy, but when called a racist…it went toooooo far.

      ” I am sorry I don’t talk to those who are racist against “assaults” (Blacks) color like you. You really don’t have too much ground to talk about integrity. Maybe you should go back on race hating those evil “Assault” (Black) colored things again. “

  22. Mmartin@gmail.com' Melody Martin says:

    To be fair, the anti-Israel side does this as well. The Palestinians paid $60K a month to Washington DC PR firms Quoris and Bell Pottinger to “manage social media”. Wink, wink. Nod. Nod. Say no more

  23. kw6238b@yahoo.com' Frank says:

    Melody Martin, you’re misrepresenting that or you’re misinformed. The Palestinians did not pay anyone $60k a month to “manage social media.” They contracted with the PR firm Bell Pottinger in advance of applying for UN membership in 2011 to help them get their message out about that. As part of the plan BP laid out for them they did say they’d “manage social media” for the Palestinians, but that was only one part of what they did. Other things were “Strategic Communications Advice,” “Message Development,” “Congressional Affairs,” “Media Relations,” and “Grassroots Mobilization.”

    This is all standard stuff a PR firm would do for anyone, a company, a country, a celebrity who’s received some bad publicity. I know of no PR firm Quoris.

    It was openly done and in fact they had to inform the US State Department of it, which is why it is known. It’s not very much like the secretive goings on at the organization the “shill” in the post wrote about.

    Anyone who has followed Palestine realizes they are not good at public relations and need help with it. They are decades behind the Israelis in that regard. The PLO went from being a gorilla organization to being in charge of the Palestinian Authority, and they need help with that, too. None of this affects the legitimacy of their cause. It just is.

    The things I mentioned aren’t exactly like the shill’s post, either, unless you count planting propaganda in Wikipedia, which is pretty nefarious, and the character assassination taught in the Hasbara Handbook, which is what the shill engaged in at times. But the things I mentioned differ from simply hiring a PR firm on a short term basis for such an important event in Palestinian history, and I mentioned those things off the top of my head and in the context of me and another commenter wondering aloud about the possible legitimacy of the shill’s post.

    You can take issue with me for not taking the time to look everything up at the time, but it’s not being “fair,” to use your term, to equate the Palestinians hiring a PR firm for a single event, and the propaganda that’s steadily and expertly come out of Israel at least since the time Golda Meir declared it “A land without people for a people without a land,” when Theodore Herzl, the father of Zionism, knew full well that Palestine was fully populated when he launched the Zionist movement .

    Here’s a link to an article about the Palestinians hiring Bell Pottinger:

    http://www.holmesreport.com/news-info/10820/Bell-Pottinger-Working-On-PLO-Assignment-Ahead-Of-UN-Vote.aspx

    And here’s a link to a pdf of a letter from Bell Pottinger to the PLO laying out what they were going to do for them.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CEcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnyc.indymedia.org%2Fmedia%2F2011%2F11%2F117093.pdf&ei=L8j-UPfRFMjYqQG65YDAAQ&usg=AFQjCNFv60vN99CnD_mpWYyJbKVuOyvn0w&sig2=sBueu9_Fpxu2DI1AMSSRew&bvm=bv.41248874,d.aWM&cad=rjt

  24. not@matter.org' does says:

    not only is the original article on the ATS website gone now, but seeing as that site is a forum, the whole THREAD is gone – some 15+ pages if the cache i’m looking at is correct.

    removing a whole forum thread is a big no-no, even if the original article is a huge lie, the forum serves to allow members to dispute – that the entire thread has disappeared should be worrying to those in the know

  25. orphia.nay@gmail.com' Orphia Nay says:

    Hi Alcyone.

    I’m not sure what you mean. Who is impersonating whom? SkepticGuy is the owner of ATS. He posted that comment at the JREF Forum. I’m just letting you know what he said.

    Cheers.

  26. f8te@hotmail.com' f8te says:

    “This post is not about Israel, and it is not partisan. It is simply an illustration of the mechanics of how online debate can be manipulated.”

    Yeah what a cowardly way of avoiding the “joo” stigma. It’s all about israhell you cowards! Grow a pair for chrissake!

  27. winning69@gmail.com' me again says:

    you gotta pay the toll, the troll toll…

  28. long9875@yahoo.com' Ralph says:

    The top government shill is Cass Sunstein. Just google “Sunstein + Cognitive Infiltration”

  29. PTBrules@yahoo.com' PTBrules says:

    This is creative writing. No one would be hired for any job especially this sort of job without a background check. PT rules.

    • seektress@seektress.info' LorieK says:

      That is an absolutely false statement. These creeps are under the radar (on PURPOSE) and having had over 13 years experience with them, I’d put every penny I have in savings, not much but there’s some, up against that statement. Background check! HA! Get real.

  30. seektress@seektress.info' LorieK says:

    As one of the founders of the Yahoo group Chemtrail Tracking USA in 1998, I can say for certain this is a long time practice. We were even able to document people posting in different forums with the same nickname with time stamps that made it impossible for one person to do it. It is well known, and for a very,very long time, by people in alternative media and action groups/forums that Godlikeproductions and Above Top Secret are compromised. That’s why you don’t see many posts from the serious researchers. This is a wide spread problem and should make people wake up that they are being manipulated in SO many ways. You think they’re not watching, and reading, and posting and lying to your face? Here’s a page I put up on my site at about 10:00 pm on January 7th. Is just at 4 hours, the DHS was there and you can see other early hits on the page. http://seektress.com/goodcop.htm ANd need I point out why the previous link is about THAT individual? Hmmm? This is not your grandpa & grandma’s America anymore, folks. Wake the heck up.

  31. whygivemyemailaddresstobecorrelated@hushmail.com' J Thomas L says:

    What are the two main ideas that the average decent person will take away from this article?
    1. the shills make commenting a distasteful grind
    2. “pro-Israel”

    Now, doesn’t that serve our enemy’s agenda?

    He leaves open questions at the end, which the ignorant person will answer with “Whites in power in the U.S. government, CIA, etc.” — which is WRONG.

    Beware the supposed “confession.”

    Sincerely,
    James T. Laffrey (my real name)
    http://www.WhitesWillWinParty.org

  32. nothanksfuckemailsseriouslyfuckem@fuckem.fu.ck.com' it's a hoax dude says:

    If he was a shill and wanted to expose it all, make the address of the workshop known. That and the dates of employment will allow public record searches to determine which company was behind it. Not providing those things makes me highly suspicious of the entire thing. If he wanted to take it all down he could just give out those kinds of highly relevant facts.

    Now, I’m guessing the more paranoid readers will accuse me of being paid for asking the obvious questions.

  33. seilertechco@yahoo.com' Toby says:

    Actually hoax dude, you didn’t ask a question.

    Paranoid…hardly. I’ll repost a couple of comments of a shill named Wanda and you tell me if they fit the profile. Make a guess at who she is working for… and it’s not Nymphomaniac Reasearch Associates ??

    “You have been talking bad about those evil killer ‘Assault’ (Another word for BLACK just like ‘you people’) weapons.”

    “but that is the thing with BIGOTs against ‘Assault’ (BLACK) things like you do and say to feebly attempt to take the spot light of your BIGOTRY. Maybe we should start following your example and label anything BLACK we want to BAN with the word ‘Assault’, it seems to justify your modern day profiling. *tisk* *tisk*, there was always something off with you with all the violence and insults you always make towards others here who have been respectful. ”

    “This article is pointed at that deep hatred you have on that “Assault” (BLACK) color. It is obvious it is the COLOR because you don’t even know what a “Military ASSAULT RIFLE” is other than it is “Assault” (BLACK) color type. Let it out, late the hate flow from you to those rifle DARKIES that you loath so much.”

    ” I am sorry I don’t talk to those who are racist against “assaults” (Blacks) color like you. You really don’t have too much ground to talk about integrity. Maybe you should go back on race hating those evil “Assault” (Black) colored things again.”

  34. nothanksfuckemails@fuckemails.fuck.fu.ck.com' it's a hoax dude says:

    Toby, you did nothing to address the points I raised. His story lacks the kinds of information that would expose who was behind it, which indicates that his story is probably a fabrication. Whatever gave you the idea that some random comment by some random weirdo was evidence of a big conspiracy? Dude, get a grip.

    You should be asking yourself why this article doesn’t have the key information required in order to find out who was responsible, not using bizarre quotes from some random nut. Her ranting is utterly irrelevant, you see? Crazy rantings do not make a shill, know what I mean? You could make some crazy rant, it wouldn’t make you a shill just for that.

    You are coming across as paranoid however. You are claiming that Wanda is not just a nut but a paid nut, paid by presumably the same people this article is referring to. That is not at all backed up by any evidence, but then considering how little skepticism you have shown for this article I guess I shouldn’t expect you to have any respect for evidence in the first place.

    Let me be frank. I don`t care what Wanda or any other random weirdo on the internet said. I care about a story like this being backed up by the relevant facts. All this guy has to do is give an address and a date, its that simple. Not giving out that information prevents anyone from finding out who is responsible for the shills, but you don`t seem to care about finding out who they are.

    Hey, you know what.. that might be the kind of behavior one would expect of a shill! You are trying to change the topic from relevant things to crazy rants, after all. I`m pointing out obvious things here and all you have is rants about some weirdo named Wanda.

    Ask yourself why someone would write this and then not give the slightest information to truly expose the people. No address, no dates, nobody gets named. I hope you actually care about this enough to want names and dates and locations. Expose them if the story is true. If the story is fake then expose that too.

    • seilertechco@yahoo.com' Toby says:

      You have a lot of credibility asking for details when you don’t even use your name. Perhaps you didn’t read the article since it says he didn’t really even know who he was working for. What, you don’t think a lot of campain contributions go to this type of deception? Take your head out of the sand “dude”. If you do a bit of research, there is a lot more that confims this has become a common practice. One can hire an internet whore for about any purpose…all it takes is money.

      • nothanksfuckemails@fuckem.fuck.fu.ck.com' it's a hoax dude says:

        Toby, if he has the address and the date a public record search as well as asking questions of the landlord would be a way to determine who was renting the place. I don’t get why you would ignore that. Are you saying that unless I use my real name my questions don’t matter? Bull. You should do some research. Take your head out of the sand. This story is completely unreliable because ANYONE who wanted to expose them would have given out that information. It’s a hoax, smarten up.

        Do you see my denying that there are paid shills on the internet? No. I am asking for the kinds of information required to track down who these people are and you trot out some nonsense and then come back at me for wanting to know who these people are. You aren’t being rational. If you want to know who is behind these shills you should be asking for the date and location of the place of employment. You are not, so you don’t really want to know who these people are…. or if you do, you sure are going about it wrong.

        Smarten up. The story is a hoax. If you really care about this you would be asking some questions, so you don’t. You want to accept these claims even when they are fake, so you don’t care about the truth.

        Ask this hoaxer for the dates of employment. The address he worked at. A simple online record search ought to show what company paid the rent. Another record search will show who owned that company.

        The fact that you don’t want to know those things would indicate, to a more paranoid person, that you might be a shill trying to hide the identity of the shills. Why else would you try to derail honest inquiry? See my point? You are acting as if you were one of the people you want to expose.

        Smarten up. Ask the obvious questions. If you take all of this crap at face value you will be tricked again and again and again.

        • seilertechco@yahoo.com' Toby says:

          I don’t care if you don’t believe it. I do and so do a lot of others. And the examples I gave fit the profile exactly. Additional research has given me a lot more information, but there is no reason to post it here.

          I think you are extremely foolish to think that this is not happening and that it can be destructive and a distraction from real and beneficial discussion.

          Honest inquiry???…no “dude”, you seem bent on insulting me.

          So no, I don’t see your point.
          .

          • fuckemailsfuckemall@fuckem.fuck.fu.ck.com' it's a hoax dude says:

            There is no reason to post additional research exposing paid shills online? Really? You have more information but there is “no reason” to post it? Are you now claiming to be able to expose more shills but unwilling to do so?

            Bull. That is a total lie. If you care as much as you are pretending you will expose those shills every single chance you get. Instead, you just make stuff up. If you care at all about this you would be asking for the sort of information that could be used to expose them for what they are. An address, a date. How hard is that for an honest person to provide?

            Are you even reading my comments? I have said that there are internet shills and that I want to expose them by having this author present the kinds of information that people can use to expose them. Are you seriously unable to comprehend that?

            If you have information, expose it. If you don’t, stop lying about it. You come across like some guy pretending to have proof of Bigfoot but hey, it just isn’t worth showing that proof. That isn’t the kind of con job that will go unchallenged.

            Your attitude is so detached from reality that I don’t expect any rational response. If you can pull your head out of your rectum long enough to accept that people who want to actually do something about this could use the address and date to expose the shills if this particular story is true then you really ought to get off the internet and into kindergarten, because little kids show more integrity than you have shown.

            You don’t care about exposing them at all. If you did you would ask for the information required in order to, you know, expose them. Don’t you think there are groups online that would love to have a way to expose them? Don’t you think they would love to have an address and date, a starting point to expose the company behind this story? You are out of your mind if you can’t figure out how important that would be.

            Don’t come back with a lie, don’t pretend not to get my point. Only the stupidest people wouldn’t understand my point by now.

          • j.willbanks@me.com' Alcyone says:

            The article itself is completely unverifiable. To play devil’s advocate, this could be a guy with something heavy on his conscience that he wanted to get off, but was not willing or able to go further to actually expose these people for fear of retaliation. Then again, it could all be complete BS.

            The value of this article is that it illustrates how an operation like this could work. Most who have researched controversial topics of any sort online has encountered these people at some point or another. I view this article as a useful internet exercise in how an operation like this might be executed.

            Just my $.02.

            - Alcyone @CLN

          • seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

            I’ve dealt with this issue long enough… believe whatever you want, I really don’t care.

  35. Cinbrewer@yandex.com' Cynthia Marie Brewer says:

    Weather or not this is true is irrelevant. It happens time and again. There are absolutely trolls making every attempt to destroy the credibility of people injured by the programmers of the system.

  36. monkey@m4.cn' monkey says:

    that would explain why there are so many anti-China comments all over the internet

    • bon@net.com' Bonnie says:

      Anti-China?

      And they should be!, China is a vile Communist country!

      • tomas.mijatovic@live.com' Tommy Perth says:

        That’s a bit harsh. The majority of the Chinese population are decent, ordinary folk like you and me, who just happen to be living in a vile Communist country.

        • seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

          I won’t go near that far… in describing China, as a “vile” Communist country. Their leader has stated a peaceful policy is desired and I hope that his wife will keep him happy.

          The traitors seem to be our own government that have sold us bogus, self serving policy, saying that we can be “consumers” and not producers and the magical FED monetary system would accommodate it. China is doing what is in China’s best interest, but to call it vile, is too harsh and not accurate, I believe.

          I would suggest modest, low import tariffs to balance some of the effects that our government supported move of production to China has upon our “former” employed, however!

          AND…I support the “American Anti-Corruption Act” to prosecute those who choose money and power over public office duty.

  37. orphia.nay@gmail.com' Orphia Nay says:

    ATS moved the “I was a paid internet shill” topic to their ‘worse than hoax’ subforum, “Ludicrous Online Lies [LOL]” subforum:

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread826545/pg1

    The OP has been edited to say, “Thread is close and hoaxed. The author admitted in a private exchange that the entire story was fabricated.”

    Time to update the CLN article.

    • silertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

      Your right Ed, most are not in the same power circles nor have the same wealth as the Zionists who do have such “control”. Like Rothchildren, Bernanke and the FED (and many others as the author in your article clearly recognises).

      Perhaps I would never have even noticed or began research until I found my stolen steel materials at a local scrap company and had a couple of other business dealings with the owner. He was able to keep most of it and profit from my loss, whereupon I realised the greed he displayed and little caring for those with much less. No, he lives in a mansion, his family each has significant wealth on display. His daughter has a few Cadilacs (she gets a new one each time her hubby is found in bed with another woman). They care only about themselves and exhibit extreme greed.

      I realise there are many who are even worse off than I, but not in my small community (that I know of). Instead I see greed and profit from my loss.

      Perhaps if you read the Protocols and some of the writings of “True Torah Jews” we could have an educated discussion, rather than just your snipe at me. Truth is, many innocent Jewish persons suffered greatly that had nothing to do with what some of their leaders did. Google “The Zionist Role in Causing WWII” and read the unsanitized history, if you dare.

      Never have I advocated anything but educating oneself to public sentiment that existed before both WWI and II. Because without such education, like simply dismissing a growing public sentiment as “anti-semite”, we are much more likely to repeat history than avoid it peacefully and for mutual benefit.

      FYI, I regularly stand against hipocracy in my (former) Christian church, where wrongdoing is part of the elders culture…and have paid a significant price for it.

  38. Al3arabian@gmail.com' An Arab says:

    How do we know there aren’t shills right now trying to derail the focus of the readers from the article in the comment section? Ive always known of such a manipulation and frankly it doesn’t matter. There’s nothing these shills can do to hide the truth. Their efforts are vein.

    • queer4ever@yahoo.com' An Arab's Arab AND A Jew's Jew 2 says:

      Of course, the ex-shill is STILL a shill. Still ‘Pro-Israel’. She, he & it are merely a double agent now. Pay packet increased; NOW this shill lies and inverts lies to cover up lies. ‘Pro-Israel’? Ha ha. Not even many Israelis are Pro-Israel any more, that’s mostly left to the Shills.
      Death to ALL Nations AND the NWO, let’s get back to wandering and being nomads, like all the great, old time Arabs & Jews! And lettuce Walkabout like the great, Australian Aboriginal…

  39. invincible.macedon@gmail.com' Al P says:

    The attempts to deny the reality that this story represents is part of the agenda. A story like this weaken the effort to manipulate public opinion. All one needs to do to verify the veracity of this story is read the comments posted by obvious Pakistani agents in virtually every Indian news site.

    Not only are they flooded with shrills the media sources themselves, be it cnn, yahoo, TOI, etc all delete reasonable comments and allow outrageous posts calling for murder and debasing Indian society in general

    • seilertechco@yahoo.com' toby says:

      Yes Al P, you are exactly right. They have much more effect than people want to believe. I disagree An Arab, that their efforts are in “vein”. They derail so many discussions that truth can be hard to discern, even when one knows they are shills.

      Discussing this issue and exposing them has me banned from the site that claims “largest site for healthy and green living” called Care2. It’s not only the paid shills, the site owners are part of it.

    • queer4ever@yahoo.com' An Arab's Arab AND A Jew's Jew 2 says:

      You are a little correct, the rest is your paranoia. You MAY just have a Pakistani sympathetic moderator, but I doubt even that. You have merely forgotten that India is a terrible country, like most or all countries (are terrible).

  40. info@bedbug911.ca' Jim says:

    Whats this talk about wasps? Someone please call pest control to moderate the comment section…

  41. shellytheproducer@yahoo.com' shelly says:

    this may constitute further proof of the operations and their origins:

    http://www.insanemedia.net/forum-shill-gets-busted-ats-and-glp-censor-n-7015a/2924

  42. rhondastull@gmail.com' Rhonda says:

    It’s in reality a great and helpful piece of info. I’m
    happy that you simply shared this helpful info with
    us. Please stay us informed like this. Thanks for sharing.

  43. Roy_Andrade@gmail.com' gay forum says:

    That dude sounds about as much fun as a wet raccoon trapped in an outhouse.

  44. drudge@gmail.com' cyan says:

    There are a lot of shills in the indie game market. Apple has legions of shills at its disposal.

  45. merciajew@yahoo.com' Steven Giles says:

    “The OP has been edited to say, “Thread is close and hoaxed. The author admitted in a private exchange that the entire story was fabricated.”

    Ok, so does someone want to just highlight that?

  46. Ke6wnh@verizon.net' Marty says:

    Thus online shill stuff might explain why we never see any negative reviews of online dating services… think about it, they’re run by people whose purpose in life is to rob lonely people.

  47. harrisonmegan7@gmail.com' megtronic says:

    I totally agree!!!

  48. macekiplacki@o2.pl' macek677:YT says:

    Interned is flooded with those shills. Forums, chat rooms, even more ‘distant’ web sites.
    Now we know why they need NSA, GCHQ and so like. They are mining metadata which is our psychological background. That can be sold or rather provided for those shills to work on it. I can prove that I meet shills even in online computer games. Why do you think NSA has their employers in most popular games like World of Warcraft? Now we know. Data mining.

    In my opinion this went too far. There is no way to take back control of the internet. How about starting to ‘pack up’ slowly and moving on, leaving it behind? I’m already working on that.

  49. veksMURDERFACE@gmail.com' disturbin'thebe@st says:

    Woww. Came into this article a little late, read all the comments. Again, Woww. What a mess!
    We read in Daniel where it is told to us that the TRUTH will be stamped to the ground. I’m guessing that the “shills” are playing a role in this, whether they know it or not. I prefer to call them “trolls”. ..
    Most are easily spotted (for me), some have slightly more talent than others…
    Although the article might be completely made up, the information was indeed highly accurate, based on my experience. Kinda like Orwell’s, 1984 book or something. Storybook, but absolutely real. It’s insane.
    All I’m saying is this. Keep in mind that part of the illuminati plan is to SLOWLY leak this information out until it becomes common knowledge so that by the time a real major event comes along (by their hands of course) the people are callous to it and it quickly becomes a thing of the past. And with despotism on the rise, they are sure to get even bolder, and even quicker.
    They would love nothing more than to keep us in the dark until they’ve converted or killed us, one of the two…
    These are children of the night and darkness. Not children of the light or day. ..
    I can’t say ii really even blame them. I pray for them.
    They serve their father the Devil, and ii operate under the authority of my Father YHVH.

    It bothers me when ii see good Christians falling for the schemes of the trolls.
    Bickering back and forth, trying to disprove them or cast judgements. Trying to slam them with the full on meat of the word when they are yet babes and can hardly handle the milk.
    The only way they will ever get to know the real love of YHVH, is if WE show it to them unconditionally as HE continually shows us.
    Then, maybe, they might decide to give that guy EMMANUEL a try for once.
    Yes ii know, we call Him Jesus too… sometimes.

  50. Cet article est vraiment rempli de conseils

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